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California's Lead Free Ammo Law - Recycling Lead Pellets  

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Droidiphile
(@droidiphile)
Joined: 12 months ago
Posts: 52
2018-10-29 12:46:08  

My first post here.  I live in the SF Bay area.

California's lead free ammo law, AB711, is less than 1 year away, and it does not include air gun pellets.  The wording is tricky though.  It states that "air guns are not firearms" therefore exempt.  But, other parts of state legislation define "firearms" to include air and BB guns.  So I feel like the writing is on the wall: firearm ammo will be lead free in CA by July 2019, with air gun ammo soon to follow.

This actually does not bother me as I moved to lead free pellets a while ago, just because lead is toxic and I don't like handling it, or having on my premises. 

But I have an accumulation of lead pellets collected from my traps.  I want to do the right thing and recycle properly.  But the recyclers are rather ignorant.  It took a while to convince them to accept the empty steel CO2 canisters when really, they are "standard trash" in CA.   

So any ideas on how or where to properly recycle my dead lead pellets?  And/or ideas on how to convince my local recyclers that this is less toxic than the lead batteries they already recycle?

Now, if I can only find .22 caliber lead free wadcutters, I'd be very happy!  😉 


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 459
2018-10-29 14:33:32  
Posted by: Droidiphile

My first post here.  I live in the SF Bay area.

California's lead free ammo law..air gun pellets...So I feel like the writing is on the wall: firearm ammo will be lead free in CA by July 2019, with air gun ammo soon to follow...

It may be a little premature, but this raises some concerns for me in Texas.  I like the lead ammo I'm shooting now, mostly because it's accurate and has good knockdown power.  In other words I know what to buy and I know what to expect.  So, might we be next?

OTOH, there are some restrictions regarding all sorts of things that have been on the books on California for decades, and they've never made it here--and probably not to the rest of the country, either.  I think I'm correct in stating that your state is definitely the most restrictive of the 50 states in the union.

I'm not in a panic mode about it yet.  I'm in more of a somewhat-hopeful, wait and see mode.  If I have to switch, I will of course.  I'll cross that bridge if and when I come to it.

BTW, since you've already made the switch, if you have some nuggets of wisdom to lend us as to how you've been able to successfully do so and still get good results, I'd love to read that post.  I'm talking about things like target-accuracy and hunting-effectiveness results you obtained in the field.

Thanks for bring-up the subject.  It needs addressed.  Others of us including myself may be next, and it would be nice to know in advance 'how we can get there from here'.

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


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r1lover
(@r1lover)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 39
2018-10-29 14:42:34  

Post it on Craig's List and some fishermen who casts lead head jigs or sinkers or a powder burner who casts lead bullets might come pick it up, provided you have enough to make it worth their effort to come and get.


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Doug Wall
(@doug-wall)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 115
2018-10-29 14:44:30  

You have a problem. Lead is hazardous waste, not recycling!

I think that you should just ship them to me. The cost of a flat rate priority mail box is going to be way less than the hazardous waste disposal fees.


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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 275
2018-10-29 15:12:28  

While a whole lead-acid battery may be more dangerous, due to acid, I'd say spent pellets are overall more dangerous.

More chance of lead powder, dropped pellets, ie. less self contained.

I do not disagree with your sentiments concerning lead.

 

I just helped a friend move, he had WELL over 800-1000Lbs of bullet alloy. Either in ingots or linotype.

It takes 50Lbs or a 5gal bucket to get us interested, scrap lead sells for $2/Lb or slightly more here.

Try the scrap metal recycler, not the tree hugger recycler.

As in, get PAID.

 

 

There you have it, the world according to John.


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boscoebrea
(@boscoebrea)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 180
2018-10-29 16:16:43  

The metal recycler in Vallejo accepted"clean" lead... the fishermen use it to make sinkers..give it away on Craigs list...


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Droidiphile
(@droidiphile)
Joined: 12 months ago
Posts: 52
2018-10-29 16:55:46  

For ekmeister and others interested, I'd be happy to share what I have found about lead free pellets.  I'm sure there are many knowledgeable folks here who know more than I. 😀  And what works in my two pistols, may not work for you.  Let me start with cost.

Price: The accurate .22 caliber pellets range from $0.08 to $0.12 or more. That averages $1/10 shots.  So you really have to shop around.  .177 caliber can be had for $0.04 to $0.05 per pellet, or $1 per 20-25 rounds.  If you know of any great deals, pass on the info!

Hardness: not a factor.  The tin alloys used are (mostly) only slightly harder than lead.  At 10 meters, if they hit a steel back plate in a trap, they pancake just like lead.  I've shot about 2500 rounds through my Vigilante and the riflings are pristine.  2240 - ditto with even more rounds fired. 😀  The one exception I found was Gamo .177 Lead free Match.  That alloy manifests as much harder and they ricochet on reactive targets and traps - very bad news at 10 meters.

Accuracy: no losses after sighting in on a rest. 

Weight: Depends on distance.  2240 - 15.5 meter public pistol range: H&N Baracuda Green or Predator GTO domed, both ~12gr ... I get better groups than most of the amateur pistoleros.  I can't compete with the officers at the prison though. 😀   10 meter range: 2240 - H&N Field Target Trophy Green domed (~10gr) are fantastic.  Vigilante (.177) -  on 10 or 5 meter outdoor/indoor ranges I use H&N Match Green wad cutter at 5.25 gr, and H&N Baracuda Green domed at 6.64 gr.  Surprisingly, no dot sight adjustment needed - they both hit spot on and as good as I can shoot.

Shape: if I could get lead free wad cutters in .22, I'd use them.  I prefer that shape with reactive targets over domed.  I prefer wad cud cutters for all targets in .177.  But that is only a preference.  In .177, shape seems to be a non issue for targets. 

Hunting: Not really - I kill rats.  We live on a creek with poplars, birch and pine.  Rats come out of the tress to eat the bird seed my wife places out.  I hate rats, but I do want to be humane.  So I did a penetration test using thin leather (skin) over a 1" pork chop.  I'm weird, I know.  The meat shredder among lead free pellets is the .22 Predator GTO domed (~12gr).  At 10 meters or less, the rats do a mini flip and drop dead to the ground with a gaping hole.  The pointed rounds did penetrate better, but I find them to be less accurate.   For definitive tissue trauma on rats - Predator GTO domed.

That's all for now.  Go in peace folks !


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ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 459
2018-10-29 18:15:24  
Posted by: Droidiphile

For ekmeister and others interested, I'd be happy to share what I have found about lead free pellets...

For all of that, especially considering the time I know it must have taken to put together your post with all those details, I want to sincerely thank you.  That gives me a good start and maybe things will work-out better than I have been imagining since this new lead-free ammo and lead-free sinkers appeared on the market, with their implications.  Of course, with fishing sinkers I'm not nearly as concerned about the change detrimentally affecting this size of my groups. 🙂

I don't need to copy your post.  I know it's here so I can refer back to it.

Thanks Again!

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


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Hector J Medina G
(@hector-j-medina-g)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 302
2018-10-30 13:03:00  

At the ranges you shoot, you are quite right in preferring the WC's.

For farther ranges, you are also right, the GTO outperforms almost every other Non-lead pellet out there in most riflings.

SOME barrels will shoot the Barracuda Green's better, but they are usually on the tight side and powerful rifles.

You can read a little more and see test groups here:

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/the-mauser-am03-and-shooting-the-reconstructed-original-field-course-in-delaware-co-pa  

and here:

https://www.ctcustomairguns.com/hectors-airgun-blog/second-round-with-the-diana-mauser-am-03-shooting-at-difta-on-cinco-de-mayo  

Hope you enjoy!

 

HM

 


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Frank in Fairfield
(@frank-in-fairfield)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 149
2018-10-30 16:10:31  

Many big bore airgunners are casting their own pellets.

Offer it to them for shipping cost...

Stay safe and free..


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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 275
2018-10-31 16:14:56  

Correction, scrap lead is going for $0.40-$0.50/Lb based on an internet search.

I have no idea why my friend was paid $2/Lb, but I saw the ticket. He was after my hoard!

 

This lead free idea is interesting, 2% tin makes for a much nicer wheel weight bullet alloy. I'd been using rummage sale pewter.

I would like to shoot inside more, with an LDC of course, but lead has prevented me. Perhaps I can kill 2 birds...

 

Those .177 pellet weights are also interesting.

Are these shapes identical to common lead pellets, and makers just changed the alloy?

 

Thanks for the large post on lead free, hope Cali leads the way and prices come down.

Not saying "I hope to live in Kali-Florida" but that lead IS dangerous, and I wouldn't mind reducing exposure.

Teaching kids to shoot is a great example, hands all in their face and whatnot.

 

There you have it, the world according to John.


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dcw
 dcw
(@dcw)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 62
2018-11-01 10:24:13  

i have not read the "new" law but the existing law is air gun pellets are exempt and it was for hunting big game with powder burners.

many powder burners are turning to copper or brass for projectiles.


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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 275
2018-11-01 12:52:12  

With all due respect, it's California.

The steel core ammo ban also did not effect airgunners.

What it DID was give ranges a good reason to ban internally, and I expect a similar trend with lead.

Talk to a prospective range owner, or look into opening one yourself, the environmental concerns are $$$$$$$ or more.

I see no reason that ranges, NEW ranges would want lead, much simpler/safer to ban it.

Old ranges are "Grandfathered" in, but a trend will eventually emerge among new ranges.

 

We've been on a long match towards reduced toxicity, and lead is slowly, systematically being eliminated from all sorts of goods.

The trend is established, and it will march forward.

 

I suspect the areas of Cali SS which name airguns as fiearms has to do with violent crime, many states already have these laws.

Rob a 7-11 with a Red Ryder and you'll see 😉

 

WHO ELSE SHOOTS LEAD FREE HERE?

Is this a de-facto performance increase for the R9?

Which of the .177 wadcutters is softest? Heaviest?

 

I'm going to see if PA filters a search by lead free....

 

There you have it, the world according to John.


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Droidiphile
(@droidiphile)
Joined: 12 months ago
Posts: 52
2018-11-01 13:34:10  
Posted by: dcw

i have not read the "new" law but the existing law is air gun pellets are exempt and it was for hunting big game with powder burners.

many powder burners are turning to copper or brass for projectiles.

The law is being phased in over time.  If I understand it correctly, it started out with bird shot, progressed to all ammo in the CA condor habitat, culminating on July 2019 with a complete ban on lead ammo for all "firearms".  Currently, the state language does not include air guns in their definition of "firearm", that's true.  But if you read county and local ordinances, they are written broadly and include everything, even a blow gun with darts, as a "firearm".  Then they say what you can and cannot do with a "firearm". 

Now factor in that air gun use is increasing, from the officers here at Vacaville training with cheaper alternatives, to citizens avoiding "firearm" restrictions, and our local legislators are taking a closer look. Language like "air guns may not be used in a manner that would cause harm" was changed to simply, "no firearms may be discharged except at licensed facilities".  Gun sales via home businesses were recently banned in my city. 

So yeah, I don't think it's a stretch to project a future devoid of lead pellets in my county and city.  CA can simply change their definition of "firearm" to include air guns and we air gunners will be lead free by law.

Go in peace, good people !


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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 275
2018-11-02 06:38:21  

It goes like this.....

09 4c

 

Everything which looks like a normal pellet, from PA.

Sorted by price Lowest-->Highest

lead free1
lead free 2
lead free 3

There you have it, the world according to John.


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Beezer
(@beezer)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 19
2018-11-02 21:22:13  

Man am I glad I don't live in California. 

Lead projectiles have been used by shooters for generations.  Lead is still in use as water piping in many cities and townships. 

Lead can be safely handled if you simply follow some normal hygiene procedures.

My suggestion would be to list it on e bay, then sell it to a powder burner who casts lead bullets. 

 

 


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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 275
2018-11-05 09:37:48  
Posted by: Beezer

Man am I glad I don't live in C̶a̶l̶i̶f̶o̶r̶n̶i̶a̶  Flint!

 Lead is still in use as water piping in many cities and townships. 

FTFY! 😉

It's important to remember that the world is staffed by these sort of folks.

http://www.guzer.com/pictures/forklift-bomb-fail.jpg

and the TRUE reason for all those dented pellets...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jTbJ12rL9L8/U0_ZJyCMXFI/AAAAAAAATE8/7YL1fKCtnHM/s1600/warehouse+crash+fail+funny.gif

There you have it, the world according to John.


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Frank in Fairfield
(@frank-in-fairfield)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 149
2018-11-05 16:24:07  

The lead ban is for hunting only. Condors and alledgedly other animals ingest the guts and remains of shot animals and the lead gets into their system that way. There is no restriction on lead use at ranges or when target shooting..California’s ignornce lies in the fact the bans began to protect the Condor. California ignored the evidence that the California Condor has been tracked and seen in Utah, Arizona and Colorado. More is the pity.

Stay safe and free..


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Pzhills
(@paul-in-zhills)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 50
2018-11-06 07:49:16  

So you have fallen for that political bullcrap about how bad lead is for you.  I got this from a toxicologist that explains the real and not-s0-real hazards of handling lead.  Don't be a fraidy-cat.  Take a vacation trip once a year to another state and buy all the pellets you can.

"Much of the information out there about lead poisoning is nothing more than alarmist science. I work in a toxicology lab and am always amazed at the bad rap that lead gets. Let's look at a few things:

- The lead in lead paint is in the form of organic lead and lead salts, NOT METALLIC LEAD. Both organic lead and lead salts are easily absorbed if you eat something contaminated with it or put your fingers in your mouth after handling something contaminated with it.

- Lead poisoning of waterfowl after eating the metallic lead. This is actually true and why I think so many folks are so scared of metallic lead. But there is a big difference between waterfowl and humans. Waterfowl have gizzards. The lead shot that the bird eats gets trapped in the gizard and very slowly erodes, is converted into bioavailable lead salts thanks to digestive acids, and is absorbed into the circulation. This can only occur because the lead shot gets stuck in the gizzard and is continuously ground releasing microscopic lead particles into the digestive tract.

Humans do not have a gizzard and thus a lead pellet and other metallic lead will pass thru quickly and no harm will come of it.

- But I know PB enthusiasts that have suffered lead poisoning from handling lead bullets. No you don't. The biggest problem that PB enthusiasts have with lead is from the propellant. When the propellant burns it gives off vapors of lead salts (again, not metallic lead). These lead salts are dangerous and why you should not routinely shoot a PB indoors, except in a very well ventilated range.

- What about lead dust? What if you inhale lead dust?

Have you ever seen lead dust? I bet you really haven't. It is still lead and no matter how fine a dust particle it is ground in to, it is still many, many, many, many, many times heavier than air and immediately falls to the floor. Now I'm sure that you could devise a way to inhale lead dust, but it would need to be intentionally done.

- What about that black stuff I get on my fingers after handling CPL and CPH pellets. That stuff is not lead (IIRC it is actually graphite) and even if it was lead your body has no easy way of absorbing metallic lead.

- Lead vapors, what about lead vapors? I heard they are extremely toxic. And if we are melting lead to cast our own pellets, or bullets, or fishing sinkers, then we will die.

No you won't, unless you have a really, really hot smelting furnace. Lead melts at 328 Celsius (622 F) but doesn't vaporize until around 1,700 Celsius (3,092 F). Now should you actually reach the vaporization temperature, you will have a problem.

I could go on, but will stop at this point."


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Frank in Fairfield
(@frank-in-fairfield)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 149
2018-11-06 08:46:23  
Posted by: Paul Stakun

So you have fallen for that political bullcrap about how bad lead is for you.  I got this from a toxicologist that explains the real and not-s0-real hazards of handling lead.  Don't be a fraidy-cat.  Take a vacation trip once a year to another state and buy all the pellets you can.

"Much of the information out there about lead poisoning is nothing more than alarmist science. I work in a toxicology lab and am always amazed at the bad rap that lead gets. Let's look at a few things:

- The lead in lead paint is in the form of organic lead and lead salts, NOT METALLIC LEAD. Both organic lead and lead salts are easily absorbed if you eat something contaminated with it or put your fingers in your mouth after handling something contaminated with it.

- Lead poisoning of waterfowl after eating the metallic lead. This is actually true and why I think so many folks are so scared of metallic lead. But there is a big difference between waterfowl and humans. Waterfowl have gizzards. The lead shot that the bird eats gets trapped in the gizard and very slowly erodes, is converted into bioavailable lead salts thanks to digestive acids, and is absorbed into the circulation. This can only occur because the lead shot gets stuck in the gizzard and is continuously ground releasing microscopic lead particles into the digestive tract.

Humans do not have a gizzard and thus a lead pellet and other metallic lead will pass thru quickly and no harm will come of it.

- But I know PB enthusiasts that have suffered lead poisoning from handling lead bullets. No you don't. The biggest problem that PB enthusiasts have with lead is from the propellant. When the propellant burns it gives off vapors of lead salts (again, not metallic lead). These lead salts are dangerous and why you should not routinely shoot a PB indoors, except in a very well ventilated range.

- What about lead dust? What if you inhale lead dust?

Have you ever seen lead dust? I bet you really haven't. It is still lead and no matter how fine a dust particle it is ground in to, it is still many, many, many, many, many times heavier than air and immediately falls to the floor. Now I'm sure that you could devise a way to inhale lead dust, but it would need to be intentionally done.

- What about that black stuff I get on my fingers after handling CPL and CPH pellets. That stuff is not lead (IIRC it is actually graphite) and even if it was lead your body has no easy way of absorbing metallic lead.

- Lead vapors, what about lead vapors? I heard they are extremely toxic. And if we are melting lead to cast our own pellets, or bullets, or fishing sinkers, then we will die.

No you won't, unless you have a really, really hot smelting furnace. Lead melts at 328 Celsius (622 F) but doesn't vaporize until around 1,700 Celsius (3,092 F). Now should you actually reach the vaporization temperature, you will have a problem.

I could go on, but will stop at this point."

Paul, you are absolutely correct. Clearly you were not educated in California. #46 on a list of 50 lowest educated states..

Stay safe and free..


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Droidiphile
(@droidiphile)
Joined: 12 months ago
Posts: 52
2018-11-06 15:10:50  

I'm sorry to disagree with the quote above.  First off, there is no citation - we don't know who is stating that information.  The statements above are contradicted in peer-reviewed medical research.  Here are a few quotes from an article on MedScape:

"Sites and occupations associated with lead exposure include pipe cutting, lead mining and ore crushing, lead and copper smelting, welding operations, construction, the rubber industry, the plastic industry, radiator repair, battery manufacturing, soldering of lead products, the printing industry, glass manufacture, organic lead production, solid waste combustion, frit manufacture, and paint and pigment manufacture. Persons employed in these occupations may also expose family members to lead by transporting lead dust from the workplace to their homes." <-- so this section confirms nonmetallic lead, but also metallic lead from just working with it.

"Some hobbies are associated with exposures to lead. These hobbies may include making bullets, making fishing-weights, soldering, indoor firearm shooting, and remodeling older homes."  <-- So again, the medical science contradicts the above quotation in that simply handling metallic lead can cause toxicity, and verifies exposure from non metallic lead sources.

High soil levels of lead at ranges is proven long ago.  Here is a quote from RMIT univeristy, "While there is no safe level of lead exposure, US health bodies regard 5 micrograms per deciliter of blood as the level that is cause for concern. This research finds that people using shooting ranges can record blood-lead levels as high as 40 micrograms."  If that hard core medical data does not convince you, hey man, it's your body.

Also, there is the risk analysis.  Lead exposure is so damaging that taking any risks, however trivial, are not justifiable in my mind.  Of course, it is completely your choice.

Back to the law as recently signed by Brown, it now applies to taking of all wildlife across the state of CA.  "Requires use of nonlead ammunition for taking of all wildlife in California, including game mammals, game birds, non game birds, and non game mammals, with any firearm."  So this now includes rim fire cartridges, when the previous phase was center fire only.  Even rats?  Yup. 😀 

As I said way above, my city has already altered their statutes from separate definitions for "firearms" and "airguns" to lump them all together as "firearms".  Now that the lead ban applies to "any firearm", the laws are set up to easily change language to include air guns under "any firearm", as my city did, and subsequently prohibit lead ammo regardless of use. 

Use a lead pellet ... go to jail!  😀 Go in peace good people!

 


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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 275
2018-11-07 00:08:46  

Dear Paul,

with all due respect, when you quote morons and demagogues, you yourself look like a moron and/or demagogue.

Your quote is so full of misinformation ...  where to begin?

 

Let's begin with argumentation.

Your statement begins with a logical fallacy know as "Appeal to Authority."

Anyone can look it up, and catch the first whiff of taint!

Next!
Correct reasoning, using sound premises.
#1 Socrates is a man.

#2 All men are mortal.

Correct conclusion, Socrates is mortal.

 

Inference, using sound premises.

#1 Lead is heavier than air.

#2 The human eye often fails to detect airborne lead.

Incorrect conclusion, lead cannot become airborne.

 

Does that sound legit? Lead cannot become airborne?

If that sounds fishy to you.... you might be on an airgun forum!

How about if we impart some energy to the air? 🙂

 

How about something we ALL have? Dust!

Dust is a fine particle commonly defined as less than 500 microns, and more commonly defined as capable of becoming airborne, and remaining suspended.

This alleged toxicologist does not understand the basic definition of "dust", or how particles interact with moving air. Fail, at the most basic level?

Placing graphite (a flake type dust) in a can of lead pellets effectively "dopes" the graphite with lead.

There is substantial data on heavy metal doped dust, and the high rates of absorption through inhalation. Graphite is low danger, similar pathology to silicosis, but lead etc. is readily absorbed.

News flash, no one had to eat the paint chips!

 

This alleged toxicologist's comments on metallic vs ????? are equally laughable, but if people here were interested in chemistry... nuff said... it's LOL/facepalm/crawl-under-a rock-in-shame territory. Truly.

 

Or.... I can put it in layman's terms.

Has anyone ever seen mercury float in water?

Then how do fish contain mercury?

Yes they do.

 

 

I'm not trying to talk down to anyone and I'm FAR FAR from being a treehugger.

There isn't always a lot I can contribute here, so I lurk.

Providing a logical path to the truth is the best I could do today.

 

There you have it, the world according to John.


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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 275
2018-11-07 01:45:56  

BTW, this thread was supposed to be about pellets and or lead.

Not "California is my Dad, and he beats me!"

 

I'd love to do some testing, but before I buy $200 worth of pellets...gonna be needin a new chrony. IIa bullet resistant would be nice. X-(

Seriously though.There might be some potential to improve BC with lighter than lead alloys allowing a more traditional bullet form.
I'm envisioning a 6.5 inspired .177 heavy dome.

Time to go look at that thread about pellet BC charting!

There you have it, the world according to John.


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Dieker
(@jeff-c)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 26
2018-11-07 03:30:04  

I did not read all these post but it reminds me of the lead ban 20 plus years ago when I went out and bought a big bunch of lead fishing weights. I don't think I been fishing since but it was so cheap at the time and still feel good about it. I can't afford pellets right now. I know they cam make good pellets with something other than lead but its gonna cost more than I can afford and like the guy said its hunting only at this point but they keep chipping away at it but you know me I don 't complain. Ca guy

 

Side note the new stuff will probably turn out to be 10 times worse in years to come. we eat bad food and live with toxins and bad air but Humans still get bigger and stronger and smarter every year. 50 years from now I predict a world full of giants. Its happened before.


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Miles_M
(@miles_m)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 35
2018-11-07 05:02:24  
Posted by: Gratewhitehuntr

Seriously though.There might be some potential to improve BC with lighter than lead alloys allowing a more traditional bullet form.
I'm envisioning a 6.5 inspired .177 heavy dome.

Time to go look at that thread about pellet BC charting!

The problem with making true bullet shaped pellets out of none lead materials is that the twist rates on most airgun barrels are insufficient for stability. The popular way to get around this problem is to move the centre of gravity forward by making the back of the projectile hollow. However, in doing this you are changing the ballistic properties (moments of inertia, aerodynamic overturning moments etc.) to less favourable values thus losing a lot of the advantages. Drag will still be lower but accuracy may be difficult to obtain unless the projectile is matched to the barrel.

Don't believe anything you read on the internet. Assuming you can believe this of course.


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RedFeather
(@redfeather)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 72
2018-11-07 11:57:10  

Virginia Tech conducted a test of lead oxidation rates on bullets in the ground. The coating only goes so deep and then stabilizes. A Minie ball shot 150 years ago has no thicker costing than a pellet from the last few years. End result: the oxide prevents further leaching into the soil. Still, my range has to replace the surface of the berms every so many years, just to play it safe.

My interest in guns started over forty years ago with muzzle loading. Back then, shooters at a match might keep roundballs at the ready in their mouths. Not any more! We started getting careful in handling lead a long time ago, be it casting, storing or shooting. Even smokeless shooters are now taking precautions. Another local range has a special hand soap in the rest rooms with instructions to use cold water to close your pores. Lead poisoning is no joke. Oh, and regarding the above "ex-spurt" quote, I'd buy a ticket to see someone shoot black powder indoors.

Back on topic, I'm curious about rate of twist. The Greenhill formula uses a constant for the specific gravity of a lead cored bullet. When the possibility of a lead ban first arose, companies came up with copper alloys such as Barnes's X bullet. Different specific gravities yet they still shot very well in standard twist guns. I'm guessing non-lead pellets would have similar accuracy.


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T3PRanch
(@t3pranch)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 18
2018-11-07 21:12:54  

Dust is a fine particle commonly defined as less than 500 microns, and more commonly defined as capable of becoming airborne, and remaining suspended.

The above  statement is WRONG! An aluminum drink can is 70 to 80 microns thick. Dust is typically 5 microns and smaller particle size.


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Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 275
2018-11-08 00:01:10  

Please provide a citation which disputes 500 microns, or .002",  an arbitrary number, likely related to flammability concerns.

It might be worth noticing the common sense definition immediately following?

Or...

Perhaps your energy would be better spent debating the authors of this chart?

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/particle-sizes-d_934.html500

 

You'll kindly notice the size of a period (.) listed as 615 microns, lead dust at 0.1-0.7 microns and red blood cells 5-10 microns.

Quite a few entries exceed the arbitrary 500 micron mark, yet still feature due to "particle size distribution".

 

I'd encourage you to take you mic out and measure some cans, to verify the info you posted. If you did already, then your mic may need calibrated, or you need a larger sample of cans.

I'm getting between .0003" and .0005" or  7-13 microns approx, on side walls.

Notice that these measurements include pigmented plastic coating and such small measurements are problematic by nature, but I'm NOT off by a factor of 10
Get your facts straight, if you can. 😉

 

Regarding twist rates...

If evoltions in powder burners will likely be ammo related, and twist will follow however it needs to, I just assumed that airguns would go the same way.

Job security!

 

Red, you are basically correct, as we would expect.

However, the Minnie which bit the dirt is not apples/apples. No one during the Civil War was ringing a gong till  their thumb got tired of loading mags.
I've been continually impressed by how thoroughly even medium powered airguns can powderize pellets, often with near zero recoverable remains.

 

 

Empirical data.

I've  cleaned no less that 30 chickens grown in my own yard, semi-freerange.

Not once have I found a lead pellet in a gizzard, never.

Several birds had upwards of a dozen steel BBs, and accompanying signs of metal toxicity.

Once a bird stole/ate some stainless hardware, with a smug look on her face. "HA! Holdin out on me EH?"

More than a few peeps suffocated in a bucket of dihydrogen monoxide.

Never 1 pellet, this leads me to suspect that upland type birds do not willingly injest lead. Smaller pellets might yeild different results.

 

 

 

 

There you have it, the world according to John.


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Miles_M
(@miles_m)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 35
2018-11-08 05:24:31  

Air rifle twist rates tend to be much lower than they are in firearm rifles of comperable calibres. This is because they are driven by the needs of diabolo pellets many of which are aerodynamically stable at normal air rifle speeds and thus do not need high twist rates. In fact, because their aerodynamic stability is marginal, many are aerogyro stabilised using a combination of aero stabilisation supplemented by gyro stabilisation.

Typical twist rates for many air rifles are around one turn in 16 inches or more. Studies I carried out on the effects of twist rates on sub 12FPE rifles suggested the optimum twist rate was between one turn in 16 to 50 inches for .22 calibre. This only looked at one pellet type and one type of error so results may well be different for different diabolo pellet designs but it was encouraging that it agreed with the results of evolutionary design in air guns.

For twist rates of one turn in less than 16 inches there was a rapid increase in errors which would give larger group sizes. For solid bullet shaped projectiles without a hollow rear twist rates of one turn in 12 inches or less will probably be required for gyroscopic stability which would make the rifle unsuitable for diabolo pellet use and thus restrict its market appeal.

When I was working we tested and tracked some solid none lead bullets from military rifles. It was one of these which was the only bullet I have seen go completely unstable after a short distance from the gun. It was tracked by multiple systems so we knew it was a real event, not an instrumentation failure.

Don't believe anything you read on the internet. Assuming you can believe this of course.


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Pzhills
(@paul-in-zhills)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 50
2018-11-11 15:30:44  
Posted by: Gratewhitehuntr

Dear Paul,

with all due respect, when you quote morons and demagogues, you yourself look like a moron and/or demagogue.

Your quote is so full of misinformation ...  where to begin?

Let's begin with argumentation.

Your statement begins with a logical fallacy know as "Appeal to Authority."

Anyone can look it up, and catch the first whiff of taint!

Next!
Correct reasoning, using sound premises.
#1 Socrates is a man.

#2 All men are mortal.

Correct conclusion, Socrates is mortal.

 

Inference, using sound premises.

#1 Lead is heavier than air.

#2 The human eye often fails to detect airborne lead.

Incorrect conclusion, lead cannot become airborne.

 

Does that sound legit? Lead cannot become airborne?

If that sounds fishy to you.... you might be on an airgun forum!

How about if we impart some energy to the air? 🙂

 

How about something we ALL have? Dust!

Dust is a fine particle commonly defined as less than 500 microns, and more commonly defined as capable of becoming airborne, and remaining suspended.

This alleged toxicologist does not understand the basic definition of "dust", or how particles interact with moving air. Fail, at the most basic level?

Placing graphite (a flake type dust) in a can of lead pellets effectively "dopes" the graphite with lead.

There is substantial data on heavy metal doped dust, and the high rates of absorption through inhalation. Graphite is low danger, similar pathology to silicosis, but lead etc. is readily absorbed.

News flash, no one had to eat the paint chips!

 

This alleged toxicologist's comments on metallic vs ????? are equally laughable, but if people here were interested in chemistry... nuff said... it's LOL/facepalm/crawl-under-a rock-in-shame territory. Truly.

 

Or.... I can put it in layman's terms.

Has anyone ever seen mercury float in water?

Then how do fish contain mercury?

Yes they do.

 

 

I'm not trying to talk down to anyone and I'm FAR FAR from being a treehugger.

There isn't always a lot I can contribute here, so I lurk.

Providing a logical path to the truth is the best I could do today.

 

Due respect?  Hey, not so grate white hunter, I only quoted someone claiming to be a toxicologist, who makes some valid points, IMO.  If you don't agree, you don't have to behave like a sphincter.


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