Anschutz 9015 damag...
 

Anschutz 9015 damaged by oiling pellets  

  RSS

Wabasha
(@wabasha)
Joined: 5 months ago
Posts: 5
2019-05-23 08:14:00  

This is from the Anschutz service center website:

OILING OF PELLETS 
This is an excellent way to ruin the regulator, internal parts of the rifle, and void your warranty.  It takes about 30 seconds of inspection to see if a shooter is oiling their pellets.  Plan on a $250 + service bill if you oil your pellets and the regulator goes south on you.  This practice is utter nonsense for 10 meter rifles.
Comments?  
I post this because, ignorant me was oiling pellets and my Anschutz 9015 has very inconsistent velocities.  Here is some data from yesterday.
 
I shot 3 strings of 15 shots on the Anschutz 9015 to compare with a 15 shot string on the Steyr LG110.  I used the same JSB 8.4 pellets that both guns seem to like. The velocities were recorded with a CED millennium chronograph.  Atmospheric data is available.
Avg = average
ES = Extreme Spread
SD = Standard Deviation

 Anschutz

 String 1: Avg=785, ES=32, SD=9.3
 String 2: Avg=780.4, ES=48.1, SD=12.2
 adjusted velocity up a little (increased striker spring tension) before string 3
 String 3: Avg=813.1, ES=47.1, SD=13.8

 Steyr
 single string of 15
 Avg=802.6, ES=15.2, SD=4.1

 
I have had the Steyr for about 4 years and always have used oiled pellets with no issues.  Comments and suggestions?

Quote
Tom Holland
(@xbowairsniper1200)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 39
2019-05-23 10:48:02  

Wabasha,

Tyler Patner from Pyramyd Air currently is competing with one in WFTF PCP Field Target.  He would probably be the first guy I would ask, he knows that gun backwards and forwards.

Tom Holland 

Field Target Tech 

My Youtube Channel


ReplyQuote
Wabasha
(@wabasha)
Joined: 5 months ago
Posts: 5
2019-05-23 12:51:52  

Thanks.  Does he follow this forum?


ReplyQuote
Tyler Patner
(@tyler-patner)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 29
2019-05-23 13:04:36  

Wabasha

A few questions:

1) Where did you purchase the rifle and how long have you had it?

2) Assuming this is a 9015 HP, is that correct?

3) Have you made any regulator adjustments or is the reg stock and the only adjustments you've made have been to the hammer spring?  

4) Approximately how many shots do you have through the gun?

I personally do not lube/oil my pellets, as the gun shoots very well without it. But I have heard of this issue and discussed it with ANA previously.  Depending on your answer to the questions above, it may not be an issue with the lube/oil, but an issue with the reg itself for other reasons. 

Tyler


ReplyQuote
Hector J Medina G
(@hector-j-medina-g)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 302
2019-05-23 15:40:55  
Posted by: Wabasha

This is from the Anschutz service center website:

OILING OF PELLETS 
This is an excellent way to ruin the regulator, internal parts of the rifle, and void your warranty.  It takes about 30 seconds of inspection to see if a shooter is oiling their pellets.  Plan on a $250 + service bill if you oil your pellets and the regulator goes south on you.  This practice is utter nonsense for 10 meter rifles.
Comments?  
I post this because, ignorant me was oiling pellets and my Anschutz 9015 has very inconsistent velocities.  Here is some data from yesterday.
 
I shot 3 strings of 15 shots on the Anschutz 9015 to compare with a 15 shot string on the Steyr LG110.  I used the same JSB 8.4 pellets that both guns seem to like. The velocities were recorded with a CED millennium chronograph.  Atmospheric data is available.
Avg = average
ES = Extreme Spread
SD = Standard Deviation

 Anschutz

 String 1: Avg=785, ES=32, SD=9.3
 String 2: Avg=780.4, ES=48.1, SD=12.2
 adjusted velocity up a little (increased striker spring tension) before string 3
 String 3: Avg=813.1, ES=47.1, SD=13.8

 Steyr
 single string of 15
 Avg=802.6, ES=15.2, SD=4.1

 
I have had the Steyr for about 4 years and always have used oiled pellets with no issues.  Comments and suggestions?

Sorry if I sound blunt, but this makes me happy that the ONLY Anschutz I have is my 380. The tone of that is completely and utterly contemptuous of the customer.

Only suggestion I can think OTTOMH is to sell the gun and get another Steyr.

First, lets start with the gun's design:

The Anschutz 9015 will NEVER yield correctly the 12.2 ft-lbs you seem to want (813 fps with an 8.44 grains Exact). It was, and is, a MATCH gun that MAY go as high as 10.5- 11.0 ft-lbs in a stretch, but trying to get it to shoot (well) at 11.5 is beyond the capabilities of the gun, moreso the 12 ft-lbs level.

Don't believe me, ask Steven Boelter at Anschutz Custom Shop. We had a really strong argument some years back (Nationals at Phoenix, if I recall correctly) and he said that any FT shooter that wanted to shoot above 10-10 1/2 ft-lbs was deluding himself. At that point I knew that there was no way I would even bother testing an Anschutz product until they got better people in there.

Now, on the technical side (and you need to follow with the Diagram in hand):

The regulator (34) attaches to a carrying body (5) and houses part of the valve (57, 25, 52 & 1), this connects with the valve body (62) that is then inserted into the housing (63). On the other side, the bolt(17) enters the housing (63) carying the bolt head (16) that itself then seals in front (2) and under.(166, 167)

There is a LONG distance between pellet and regulator, and IN THEORY, all the channel SHOULD be under positive pressure towards the barrel's muzzle when the shot occurs and even a little after.

IF oil from the pellets gets back INTO the regulator you need to question how that happens if everything is under pressure to go the OTHER way. UNLESS the machine enters a state of inverse pressure/vacuum  at certain points in the shot cycle and that sucks the oil back. OR the pellets are so "juicy"  that oil seeps and flows over the surfaces till it gets inside the regulator, after all, THIS is what an oil is SUPPOSED to do.

Either of those cases would seem to imply a bad design.

I've serviced Steyrs that did have oil in the BOLT, or even in the transfer port (extremely "juicy" pellets), but NEVER back into the regulator. USUALLY, when crud is present in the regulator it comes from cheap air fills at Paintball shops that do not really care about precision or discipline. Or handpumps that are long overdue in  their maintenance.

If you really want to give this a good try, start first by backing up to the power level the gun was made for and start from there.

You can also try lubing pellets with waxes, rather than oils. If you absolutely need to do that. Only testing the barrel will tell what needs to be done to the pellets. Things happen beyond the 35 yards line that Anschutz designers and gunsmiths have no idea about.

Again, apologies to you, but this "utter nonsense"  applies to people that want to sell FT rifles and then condition everything to what they have done for 10 meters Match.

Keep well and shoot straight!

 

 

 

 

HM

 


ReplyQuote
TerryVanpool
(@tvanpool)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 67
2019-05-23 17:47:04  

Anschutz is insulting the intelligence of their customers with this BS. As Hector said there is no way oil on the pellet can migrate to the regulator and if it did, oil on the regulator is not necessarily a bad thing. I do not use oil on my reg but I do generously lube the "O" rings with silicone lube. I contacted Anschutz once about getting some Steyr parts since they are now sister companies and after about 30 seconds I knew it was a lost cause.   

Charter Member of "The Over the Hill Gang"


ReplyQuote
Wabasha
(@wabasha)
Joined: 5 months ago
Posts: 5
2019-05-23 19:07:02  

Thank you Hector.

Tyler, regarding your questions:

Purchased from Krale this past winter. 

It supposedly is their Field Target version of the 9015.

I have made regulator adjustments in an attempt to get the velocity above the 757 fps (with JSB 8.4s) that the gun was shooting out of the box.  The gun also seemed very sensitive to temperature.  The block in which the regulator is seated was sent to Bill Rabbit for his mods in hopes of curing the assumed temperature volatility.  The 15 shot strings (posted data) were obtained after the gun was returned.  The original spring tension set screw (Anschutz part #007270) was replaced with an adjustable set screw.  About 500 shots have been fired.

Thanks Tyler


ReplyQuote
Charlie Sierra
(@ranger2bn)
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 79
2019-05-23 21:09:13  

The advice is 100% correct. Lubing or oiling pellets for 10 meter competition gun is a waste of time  

They can easily tell if you’ve lubed pellets and shot them in the rifle. 

Can the lube seep into the reg and damage it, absolutely  but it depends on the lube  and depends on how much. All one needs to do is look at where the reg is in relation to the transfer port. Get too much or the wrong lube down there as you store the rifle or shoot it the air blasts will push that lube around down there.  Is that your problem? I highly doubt it. It can happen to the FWB, Steyr, just about any rifle that has the transfer port above and at 90 degrees to the regulator... in fact those guns that have a sloped transfer port are even more susceptible to oil getting in the reg. As the fluids follow gravity, they park up against the valve, as it opens and that blast of air happens it blasts that lube all over the place and it can back into the reg. In the picture, an older design but oddly applicable, reverse those yellow air arrows and that’s oil going into the reg  gravity and air pressure push that oil all over the place.

AE3F26B8 3CD6 4F5C ABC0 3662D922B7B2

Anyone telling you that oil can’t back into the reg and that’s evidence of a bad design is full of 💩 

So the field target version in Europe is a 12fpe gun  that’s high power for a 6fpe air rifle  it’s also the HP version in the USA  it’s a 800 FPS gun with those weight pellets.  

Soooo what’s wrong? As with any German over-engineered device, tweaking just one part doesn’t just bump up the speed, it induces errors into the system that require adjustment throughout the system. With these guns it’s more a ballet of parts and tweaks and adjustments than just “increasing the striker spring tension”. With the 9015 it’s a number of things that you need to do to jack the power up successfully and it’s not going to be too much higher without a rework to include springs, shims, potential modification to the transfer port size, and maybe changes to parts of the regulator to include different internals with a little machining  the 9015 regulator is a 12 FPE/16 Joule reg  it’s NOT a 15 or 20 FPE reg, trying to make it as such requires more work. Turn it back down, shoot it at 12 FPE.  

As an aside I’d be concerned I got an “after market” converted HP gun  basically a 540 FPS gun hopped up but not using the 16 joule reg.  In looking at my US 9015 HP, the spring is 10 coils long, in my match 9015 there are 7 coils

 


Citizen K thanked
ReplyQuote
boscoebrea
(@boscoebrea)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 180
2019-05-24 01:15:32  

 really,I say no,she says yes....lets see Anschulz,arn't they one of the best target rifle maker and hold many,many records  and  haven't they been around for may decades,whyYes!

   Why you oil pellets for 10meter shooting and also want to up the power.....really,tell me  why and are the results worth it....one more thing...do you know how much power you need to hit the bullseye  at ten meters.....I do it with less than 400fps....

There is a Good reason why ten meter target shooters use what they do and that is to win.....and the competition is fierce......the guns are special and the pellets used are special.

   I do not know why so many people are power hungry,I tune my guns down so they shoot Better.

       If you enjoy doing what you are doing that is All that matters,just don't get a ticket for speeding,and to All," have a most wonderful Memorial day weekend".


ReplyQuote
Tyler Patner
(@tyler-patner)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 29
2019-05-24 07:03:23  
Posted by: Wabasha

Thank you Hector.

Tyler, regarding your questions:

Purchased from Krale this past winter. 

It supposedly is their Field Target version of the 9015.

I have made regulator adjustments in an attempt to get the velocity above the 757 fps (with JSB 8.4s) that the gun was shooting out of the box.  The gun also seemed very sensitive to temperature.  The block in which the regulator is seated was sent to Bill Rabbit for his mods in hopes of curing the assumed temperature volatility.  The 15 shot strings (posted data) were obtained after the gun was returned.  The original spring tension set screw (Anschutz part #007270) was replaced with an adjustable set screw.  About 500 shots have been fired.

Thanks Tyler

Thanks for the reply, sent you a PM. 


ReplyQuote
Hector J Medina G
(@hector-j-medina-g)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 302
2019-05-24 08:18:13  
Posted by: Charlie Sierra

The advice is 100% correct. Lubing or oiling pellets for 10 meter competition gun is a waste of time  

They can easily tell if you’ve lubed pellets and shot them in the rifle. 

Can the lube seep into the reg and damage it, absolutely  but it depends on the lube  and depends on how much. All one needs to do is look at where the reg is in relation to the transfer port. Get too much or the wrong lube down there as you store the rifle or shoot it the air blasts will push that lube around down there.  Is that your problem? I highly doubt it. It can happen to the FWB, Steyr, just about any rifle that has the transfer port above and at 90 degrees to the regulator... in fact those guns that have a sloped transfer port are even more susceptible to oil getting in the reg. As the fluids follow gravity, they park up against the valve, as it opens and that blast of air happens it blasts that lube all over the place and it can back into the reg. In the picture, an older design but oddly applicable, reverse those yellow air arrows and that’s oil going into the reg  gravity and air pressure push that oil all over the place.

AE3F26B8 3CD6 4F5C ABC0 3662D922B7B2

Anyone telling you that oil can’t back into the reg and that’s evidence of a bad design is full of 💩 

So the field target version in Europe is a 12fpe gun  that’s high power for a 6fpe air rifle  it’s also the HP version in the USA  it’s a 800 FPS gun with those weight pellets.  

Soooo what’s wrong? As with any German over-engineered device, tweaking just one part doesn’t just bump up the speed, it induces errors into the system that require adjustment throughout the system. With these guns it’s more a ballet of parts and tweaks and adjustments than just “increasing the striker spring tension”. With the 9015 it’s a number of things that you need to do to jack the power up successfully and it’s not going to be too much higher without a rework to include springs, shims, potential modification to the transfer port size, and maybe changes to parts of the regulator to include different internals with a little machining  the 9015 regulator is a 12 FPE/16 Joule reg  it’s NOT a 15 or 20 FPE reg, trying to make it as such requires more work. Turn it back down, shoot it at 12 FPE.  

As an aside I’d be concerned I got an “after market” converted HP gun  basically a 540 FPS gun hopped up but not using the 16 joule reg.  In looking at my US 9015 HP, the spring is 10 coils long, in my match 9015 there are 7 coils

 

Thanks, CS for demonstrating that it is a bad design.

WHO in their right mind would use an OBTURATING regulator when you can use a PASS THROUGH regulator? Steyr uses a pass-through regulator, so, there is no way the air pressure can push oil BACK. as you so clearly show that it will happen in the Anschutz action.

The use of this obturating regulator is what establishes the reverse path pressure condition I was talking about.

Thanks for making it clear to everyone.

As to the generalization of "German Overengineering" , you're right to a certain extent, mostly in products designed up to about 2004, and the DIANA P-1000 is an excellent example of overengineering to the point of being almost impossible to evolve, but modern trends in the industry are changing. Anschutz should also change.

Olympic shooters are a very different market from the FT shooters and the general airgunner, whether he hunts, or just plinks. Olympic shooters can have their guns serviced by trained technicians, the government (and your taxes) pay for it, but the rest of the world (>99% of shooters), need to be able to do basic things to the guns without interrupting that "ballet". Anschutz should change.

To close, the US is the biggest gun market in the world. Airguns are a small part, but people coming into airguns usually come from other shooting sports where "DIY" is part and parcel of doing well in that particular style / sport, whether it is NRA Bullseye, Service/HP, BR, MS, and/or any other. Companies all over the world are starting to put the emphasis on the shooter and how to allow the shooter to adapt the shooting system to his/her needs; and we're not only talking "ergonomics" here. It's up to Anschutz to change.

We'll see what the future brings, but I do hope they start by changing their ATTITUDE.

Keep well, thanks again, and shoot straight!

 

 

 

 

HM


ReplyQuote
Hector J Medina G
(@hector-j-medina-g)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 302
2019-05-24 08:33:46  
Posted by: boscoebrea

 really,I say no,she says yes....lets see Anschulz,arn't they one of the best target rifle maker and hold many,many records  and  haven't they been around for may decades,whyYes!

   Why you oil pellets for 10meter shooting and also want to up the power.....really,tell me  why and are the results worth it....one more thing...do you know how much power you need to hit the bullseye  at ten meters.....I do it with less than 400fps....

There is a Good reason why ten meter target shooters use what they do and that is to win.....and the competition is fierce......the guns are special and the pellets used are special.

   I do not know why so many people are power hungry,I tune my guns down so they shoot Better.

       If you enjoy doing what you are doing that is All that matters,just don't get a ticket for speeding,and to All," have a most wonderful Memorial day weekend".

BB

I DON'T think we're talking 10 meter shooting in this case.

For starters, ANY 10 M venue will quickly show you the exit door if you go substantially above the 475-500 fps region. The targets, the backstops (when used), and all the devices simply cannot stand a steady diet of even 12 ft-lbs hits.

Yes, you are right, out to the great distance of 10 meters there are a lot of things that don't make sense. Even rifling is not that relevant at that distance. But I really do not think that is the case here. Here we are talking of shooting a Field Target gun. Where you shoot varying sizes of "outside scoring" targets (3/4" to 1 1/2") at varying ranges (from 10 out to 55 yards) in the open, with wind, rain, and changing light conditions.

There are a LOT of things that happen between that 10 meter line and the 55 yards line that CANNOT be overcome with 400 fps pellets. Try shooting a FT match once, Who knows? you may even like it.

Keep well and shoot straight!

 

 

 

 

HM

 


ReplyQuote
terrykuz
(@terrykuz)
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 18
2019-05-24 19:39:35  

I has various Anschutz rifle since 2000, and they always forbid pellets as far as I can remember.  There warning was that even a dry pellet fabric would be sucked into the regulator.  I personally use a 177 no brush bore snake every tin or two. 

I had two 2002CA, two 9003. The current 9003S2 is in the precise stock.  Just to ramble, I also have a Walther LG300 Premium, and it seems to be a better rifle, but I keep the 9003 in reserve.  Only Wather quirk is the Lg300 needs about every metric allen  key size.  Anschutz is 4mm, and occasionally 3, 


ReplyQuote
daveshoot
(@daveshoot)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 65
2019-05-27 08:56:39  

Is Lemon Pledge not available everywhere? 

I wish I had an Anschutz 380. It is a hole in my life.


ReplyQuote

Please Login or Register