A Warning...heed it...
 

[Closed] A Warning...heed it, ignore it...I'm too old to be impacted!  

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HOOT
 HOOT
(@hepotter)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 77
2019-03-13 11:43:31  

Only a few years ago, we didn't have repeating pcp airguns, and .25 was seen as an unlikely hobbyist caliber.

Today, we have 9 mm, .357 caliber, and 50+ caliber airguns.  We have bolt-action, semi-automatic, full-automatic airguns, and pcp shotguns...

Let's be clear...given a multi-million dollar market...profit-driven industries will not stop bringing out more powerful airguns, until there is no further profitable market, or government intervention requires firearm type regulations for compressed air propelled weapons.  (vis a vis: State of Illinois: 700 fps/.177 caliber limit)

Do any of you believe a bureaucrat will see a difference between pcp's and firearms, when the end result is a deadly projectile impact with a human being?

Average air gun hobbyists have to organize, and give notice to air gun manufacturers who struggle to grab market share from the competition by making pcp's bigger, more powerful, more deadly, that our sport is endangered by their actions.

If we can now delineate the difference between the small caliber hobbyist, and the large caliber, ultimate-power enthusiasts, we might survive the inevitable changes coming.  A start is for responsible forum owners to move posting of information regarding large caliber air guns to a different forum!  This segregation may be our only defense when the government comes calling!

.

There it is...unload on me haters, everyone else...step up and express yourselves.  If we don't self-regulate, the government will most certainly do it for us!  

 

Kindly 'Ol Uncle 


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pistolero
(@pistolero)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 316
2019-03-13 13:46:11  

You make some valid points and foretell some possibilities that will only be proven or disproven in time. So being a natural devil's advocate, I'll make a few points and counter-points.

We all thought the muscle-car industry died in 1972 virtue of gas-shortages, fuel-efficiency standards, and insurance regulations. And it indeed did die for several years. But nowadays we hear little about gas-shortages, fuel-efficiency standards, and insurance regulations.

What we do hear about is 180-200 MPH and 10-11 second quarter-mile capable cars STRAIGHT FROM THE FACTORY. In 1971 a factory-stock car capable of 14-15 second E.T.s was considered a beast. In the last decade I've owned two VOLKSWAGEN GTI 'econobox' hatchbacks that would do that, and many common luxury cars are capable of 150+ MPH and 13 second quarter-miles! Point is, the muscle car industry did die, but somehow resurrected from the grave.

On a different subject but related to your post, when "modern sporting rifles" started gaining popularity I was not only repulsed by them but figured they would reflect badly on shooting sportsmen, and attract negative attention (like what you describe) to the detriment of traditional sportsmen and sporting weapons. A few decades later I've only slightly warmed to MSRs, and do believe they've been more curse than blessing.

That said, MSRs have spawned several flavors of shooting competitions that would never been born without them, that have exploded in popularity. That being the case, MSRs have had much to do with reversing the trend toward shooting sports dying off with old throwbacks like ME. So ultimately MSRs might prove a blessing to shooting sports, as the more MONEY involved in anything, the harder it is to kill off.

 

"No brag; just fact."- Will Sonnett


pluric
(@pluric)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 459
2019-03-13 14:42:03  

This topic came up in another thread. Seems we have been flying below the radar for some time now. Even with the power these new guns are capable of the media still lumps them into "BB" gun status. Until some mass shooting involves a pellet gun they sure don't seem to warrant much interest to demonize them. What criminal is going to invest in a full semi-auto PCP set up to commit crimes? I can see, as people petition to hunt larger game with them, a BB stacker asking what they are talking about. That may start some government sniffing around. My neighbor was asking me about them as I have a modest shooting range in the backyard. She wanted to know if they "could break the skin?" if someone was hit with a pellet. I still believe the general public considers them to be a step above a Red Ryder and leave a welt or worse "put your eye out!" 


RockDoc65
(@rockdoc65)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 59
2019-03-13 15:08:39  

"We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."

Benjamin Franklin

 

All posts like this do is divide us. They are also getting a bit "Chicken Little" for my taste. These guns, however you label them, are legal and have legitimate uses. Furthermore they are purchased, presumably, by people with jobs and who vote.


Hotair
(@hotair)
Joined: 12 months ago
Posts: 551
2019-03-13 20:05:30  

Some states already have airgun restrictions at the state level. Not sure what will be a productive way to prevent it from spreading. I would sure love to move to a ClassIII Friendly state!

HA


dave cole
(@airgunsoftulsa)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 50
2019-03-13 21:25:50  

Hoot, do us all a favor, disassemble the still and spray Orange Crush on the weeds. 🤣 


RedFeather
(@redfeather)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 72
2019-03-13 22:38:24  

Is this a reboot of an old thread? We discussed this at length a week or two ago but now it appears to have been well-shorn. ?


Bigbore
(@bigbore)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 53
2019-03-13 23:57:26  

The nerve medicine that usually gets everybody through this is that you can mail order blackpowder firearms.

I think we fly at an altitude just below them.


HOOT
 HOOT
(@hepotter)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 77
2019-03-15 10:57:25  
Posted by: dave cole

Hoot, do us all a favor, disassemble the still and spray Orange Crush on the weeds. 🤣 

 

Dear Dave...

Swine!  You can just forget doing any Christmas shopping in Toad Suck, Arkansas!!!   

 

Regards, 

Kindly 'Ol Uncle

 

 

"...We ain't wasting our wholesome, all natural, fermented grain beverages on weeds!  A real man drinks his vegetables..."


dan_house
(@dan_house)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 78
2019-03-15 11:49:35  

these guns exists because people like us, on forums like this one, proclaimed long and loud that we want big bore, high FPS and semi auto.

The manufacturers obliged us.

IF regulation happens, itll be our own fault.

 

On the Lunatic Fringe of American Airgunning
Proud sponsor of team_subsonic
Charter member of the Western Heretic Alliance


ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 448
2019-03-15 12:31:24  
Posted by: dan_house

these guns exists because people like us, on forums like this one, proclaimed long and loud that we want big bore, high FPS and semi auto.

I would like to keep my single shot, .22 caliber RWS 34 Panther that shoots at 740 fps. for 17.5 FPE.  My one other springer--in .177 caliber--is less powerful at 14.5 FPE, but still good-enough for me.  

 

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


HOOT
 HOOT
(@hepotter)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 77
2019-03-15 13:15:28  

Guys....I'm just "stirring the pot" to get this thought in forum members' minds, and get a few responses.

Just food for thought...nothing more.

 

Regards,

Kindly 'Ol Uncle 


Tim Ward
(@lefteyeshot)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 35
2019-03-15 21:14:34  

Several years ago a con in S.C. got out of prison with a contract to kill someone. He knew he couldn't buy a gun so he went to a pawn shop and bought a cap and ball back powder revolver and did the deed. He shot it out in a motel parking lot later that night with two cop and they killed him. I do have a problem with air guns that look like real PB's. I even make sure my B3-1 AKs and QB57's are in cases before I take them out to the car. People who were carrying pellet guns have been killed by cops.

Without hope, without fear


Hotair
(@hotair)
Joined: 12 months ago
Posts: 551
2019-03-15 21:33:03  

I am curious if that Ex Con managed to kill anyone with that cap and ball he used.

I personally know a cop who killed an unarmed young man in a situation you refer to and 

did not affect the cop in any way like business as usual to this day FYI...

Still proud to be a cop to this day and that killing did not affect him one bit at all.

May be typical cop mentality after killing someone or cop training to be tough!

If it were ME, I think I wouldn't be able to live with myself  after killing someone even

if it is while doing my job.

HA


Tim Ward
(@lefteyeshot)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 35
2019-03-15 22:46:50  

Yes, the con carried out the contract. 

I'm not blaming the cops. 

Is an airgun that will kill large game or a person an airgun or a gun?

Without hope, without fear


daveshoot
(@daveshoot)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 65
2019-03-15 22:56:33  

An angle on this is that fledgling (and even experienced) reporters, given a research assignment on a topic even vaguely related to this, will do a Google search on keywords. Threads like this are what they will find. The more often the theme is repeated, the more it will come up,

If you have ever been interviewed by a professional reporter on a topic on which you are something of an expert, you will not recognize your own words or ideas when they later appear in print (or phosphor). Worse, they will be interpreted in the context of whatever random hits they found online.

Think about it.


scratchit
(@scratchit)
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 14
2019-03-16 16:14:04  

 

 

 

Not sure which of your posts to respond to, and suspect I’m being baited. Here fish, fish fish....

 

One of the other six hundred and something commandments in shari’s law I’m sure states that “thou shalt not block the path to the cash register”, and now that the cat is out of the bag, as you well know, you’ll play hell getting it back in.

 

For some reason and I’m unsure as to where I acquired this misconception, I associate “No.1 bore” as the equivalent of BB size or 0.177 calibre (had to intentionally misspell that), “No.2 bore” as 0.22 calibre (again), and “No.3 bore” with the mighty 0.25 calibre.  This may have been dredged up out of some obscure post on the “BBS”.  The Wikipedia entries on “airguns” and “gauge (firearms)” do not support such a misconception. I did take note of “slugs” in the airgun entry.  There’s also references to slugs in a see also link.  It seems like it was only 3-4 years ago that slugs were referred to as boolits.  Cute, more marketing BS.

 

Now, personally, I think airguns are a p1$$ poor excuse for a firearm in any form, but in a very few applications, they are indeed perhaps, the best tool for the job.  If anyone has any thoughts on where, why, and how an air gun might excel over a firearm, I’d sure like to hear it (and a tip o’the hat to Br’er Boscoe).

 

Some time ago, it seemed to me that about once a month some moron would post “What’s the best air gun for home/self defense?(with a Gilda Radner accent)”.  Now those posts seem to be about every 4-6 months.  My opinion of such posts is that they should not be read, much less responded to.  

 

Are there now candidates for such an application?

 

In the natural progression of things does a “tactical bottle” precede a “tactical sippy cup”?  When did air guns become “bad ass”? Maybe when I was 13, but I don’t think that was part of my vocabulary then.

 

 

DON’T BLOCK THE PATH TO THE CASH REGISTER!  

 

Think of the untold number of home craftsmen/women that may supplement their dis’bility income hammering out boolits, assembling attenuators, replacing springs and what not.  As stated air guns are now a multi zillion $ bidness WORLDWIDE.  Don’t expect much support from the firearms bidness (read “Nat. Riffle Assn.”)when they figure this out.  

 

But seriously, everyone should waste a bit of their time checking the Wikipedia entries....they got entries on mrad’s and scopes and range findin’, and parlor guns and garden guns, the list goes on. Or you could watch an hour or so u-tube.

 

I’ll pause here........

 

It was 20 years ago.........does anyone recall the date the AGL died ?

 

Hey Dave, ‘preciate ur contrib’s. Just munge the keywords.  An entendres or two is also effective.  i.e.:  the nutsies are coming, the nutsies are coming.  Now are they psychopaths or an affinity group?


Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 265
2019-07-25 07:14:19  
Posted by: @daveshoot

An angle on this is that fledgling (and even experienced) reporters, given a research assignment on a topic even vaguely related to this, will do a Google search on keywords. Threads like this are what they will find. The more often the theme is repeated, the more it will come up,

If you have ever been interviewed by a professional reporter on a topic on which you are something of an expert, you will not recognize your own words or ideas when they later appear in print (or phosphor). Worse, they will be interpreted in the context of whatever random hits they found online.

Think about it.

This is how the internet works, reporters too.

 

The interview was all chopped up, and my answers were all spliced  as if they were in response to ridiculous questions, which I wouldn't have even responded to.

In other words, she asked one set of questions in person, and edited in another set of questions at the studio.

At the time, I assumed the word mangling was on account of the "fledgling" status, but now realize that it was intentional.

It had nothing to do with me (work happenings) but I still didn't care for the intentional misrepresentation.

Fake news!

 

I agree that demand and the $ are driving this market.

It's very hard to stop people from wanting what they want.

 

My POS DOdge v10 would spank plenty of those 60s-70s muscle cars, so many daily driven imports would also.

Those  incredible cars from HP wars are more nostalgia than reality... from the bad old days.

 

Hoot, if you're to old to be affected (doubtful) then you must also realize that other members are young enough to be effected.

So far, the only people I've heard squawking about this, have been on airgun forums.

Do you think that posting this to the net a few more times will lower it's prevalence in search returns?

Your generation doesn't understand the modern world, yet still ruining stuff... all while blaming it on the young people.

We (the young) are driving innovation, please leave us alone.

 

A quote from Douglas Adams...

“I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.”

 

There you have it, the world according to John.


Bill S.
(@tripleguy)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 139
2019-07-25 11:42:02  

I don't have sales or revenue statistics to back this up but I don't see a growing market here or a very large one. 

"But I'll be needin that gun, fer squirrels and such."


ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 448
2019-07-25 12:40:55  
Posted by: @gratewhitehuntr
Posted by: @daveshoot

This is how...

A quote from Douglas Adams...

“I've come up with a set of rules that describe our reactions to technologies:
1. Anything that is in the world when you’re born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works.
2. Anything that's invented between when you’re fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it.
3. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things.”

The quoted comments remind me of something I finally concluded some years back: every person and society probably tends to think that they're the most advanced ever, and perhaps the most advanced that there ever will be.  This pertains to air gun stuff, too.  Let me explain:

When I was just a kid, we had TV, but mostly black and white TV.  Then my uncle got his new color TV, and we were pretty amazed and proud at that latest technology.  In the mid 60's penicillin was already common, but tetracycline and a handful of others had come along and we thought that was pretty amazing, too.  We got those muscle cars you mentioned, plus new-fangled seatbelts for 'the latest' in safe driving (no argument about the safety).  I'll stick to just those examples.  What else could there possibly be??

How about TV's with wireless remotes, and DVR's that far eclipsed VCR's, and CGI to totally-fake who and what you think you're seeing on the screen?  Or, an almost countless array of antibiotics to choose from if one of the others doesn't work, radial tires for much safer driving and computer-controlled car engines to provide more-reasonable gas mileage, while still having massive power available if you want to put your foot into it?  Anti-lock brakes for even better safety?  Surely this is as far as things can go.  (I'm sure I'm missing some favorites that others here have, but I think those prove the point).

My point is that no matter where we are or what we have at any given time, I try to remind myself that we don't know and probably can't even guess what new technology is next.  We might get a glimpse in science fiction books, but even they miss the mark at times (I seem to remember that we would all be flying our hover cars or jet packs to work and play by now, but I'm still traveling the same old ways).

I'm glad we have cell phones and personal computers, not happy about the cyber crime they spawned, though. I think I'll REALLY be impressed if and when they fix this obviously-LSD-influenced virtual 'assistant' they call spell checker, that made me back up a dozen times while typing this post to fix errors I didn't make in the first place.

Just to be clear, though, I'd still love to have a 289 or 302, 4-speed, 4 bbl Mustang in mint condition.  I WOULD beef-up the brakes and suspension, and put radial tires on it.

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


DavidEnoch
(@davidenoch)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 260
2019-07-25 13:23:00  

I hate the way old threads can get brought back up, but since it did, I will chime in.

The only argument against what the poster is saying comes from Muzzle Loaders.  They still out power big bores and are not legislated as firearms as far as I know of.  I suspect every state is different.

David Enoch


Droidiphile
(@droidiphile)
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 41
2019-07-25 16:12:30  

You can use the model rocket hobby as an example.  When it began, there were tiny little wimpy motors that went fsshshshshshs.  Now, there are gigantic motors the size of a Peterbilt drive shaft.  They organized and self regulated.  There are 3 categories of certification: low power, mid power, and high power.  Each step up requires appropriate licensure by the state of CA, non-governmental, self imposed background checks, and formal certification via exams and a safe and successful flight test. The launches are quite formal with Range Safety Officers coordinating all activities and conducting pre-flight checks of all rockets prior to clearing for launch.  Launch is under strict control of the Launch Control Officer.  There is much more.  On top of all that, official paying members of the National organization have $1M insurance.  These guys get (pretty much) left alone to do their thing.

Airguns?  How far are we willing to go to protect our hobby ? As a start, and as was suggested above, set testing and certification for various FPS levels, caliber, and ammo mass.

 


Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 265
2019-07-25 19:46:11  

Let me play Captain Obvious, and ask the obvious question.

 

I've purchased guns, submitted to a background check, many FFL transfers, and have a CC permit.

What am I supposed to be worried about here?

There you have it, the world according to John.


ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 448
2019-07-25 21:23:24  
Posted by: @gratewhitehuntr

Let me play Captain Obvious, and ask the obvious question.

 

I've purchased guns, submitted to a background check, many FFL transfers, and have a CC permit.

What am I supposed to be worried about here?

I think you ask a very good question. 

You?  Maybe nothing. 

But some who can't pass the same background checks and such that you did may still be able to purchase a powerful air gun at present without your credentials.  I think the original poster is saying that if air guns get TOO powerful, plus semi- to boot, these other folks may lose their purchasing ability and maybe even get their presently-owned guns confiscated.  (Am I warm here?)

There's another issue that used to be very-cautiously mentioned, but now rarely if ever gets a pause for concern, at least not from what I've seen.  We used to call certain air gun accessories things like 'neighbor-friendly' to avoid unwanted attention.  Now the US market is flooded with them, they're openly mentioned in numerous catalogs (in print and online). and no one seems all that worried about discussing them, even with less-cautious terms being used nowadays.  Well, what if that item changes?  It could happen.  Just because we have the hardware now doesn't mean it couldn't be outlawed and their owners suddenly-deemed criminals.  It's happened with other shooting paraphernalia, so it seems reasonable that it could happen with those, too. 

While I don't know what you own, or need to know, that item COULD affect even someone like you who has an FFL, a CC, and who's passed background checks.

To be honest, I rarely even post in these threads, because certain words and phrases are said to be hot buttons for searches by those who seek to cause us trouble, and I'm afraid I'll slip up and mention one of them (which I tried not to do here).

In rereading the above, I feel a little bit bad here, because I'm afraid it may sound like I'm attacking you with what I just wrote.  I promise you that wasn't my intent.  You asked a fair and reasonable question, and I tried to give you an honest answer, nothing more or less was intended.

Thanks.

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 265
2019-07-26 06:26:17  

 

Effected vs Affected, and I was poking fun at Hoot, perhaps the joke was excessively cryptic?

AFFECT:

An immediately expressed and observed emotion. A feeling state becomes an affect when it is observable, for example, as overall demeanor or tone and modulation of voice. Affect is to be distinguished from mood, which refers to a pervasive and sustained emotion. Common examples of affect are euphoria, anger, and sadness.
A range of affect may be described as broad (normal), restricted (constricted), blunted, or flat. The normal expression of affect involves variability in facial expression, pitch of voice, and the use of hand and body movements. Restricted affect is characterized by a clear reduction in the expressive range and intensity of affects. Blunted affect is market by a severe reduction in the intensity of affective expression. In flat affect there is a lack of signs of affective expression: the voice may be monotonous and the face, immobile.
Affect is inappropriate when it is clearly discordant with the content of the person's speech or ideation.
Affect is labile when it is characterized by repeated, rapid, and abrupt shifts. Example: An elderly man is tearful one moment and combative the next.

AFFECTIVE DISORDERS: Behavior disturbances characterized principally by increased or decreased activity and thought expressive of a predominating mood of depression or elation. Although at times conspicuous, the behavioral change is seldom bizarre.

Posted by: @gratewhitehuntr

 

Hoot, if you're to old to be affected (doubtful) then you must also realize that other members are young enough to be effected.

 

There you have it, the world according to John.


ekmeister
(@ekmeister)
Member of Trade
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 448
2019-07-26 08:11:02  
Posted by: @gratewhitehuntr

 

Effected vs Affected..., and I was poking fun at Hoot...

I didn't need all of the rest of that to get the point.  In spite of knowing the definition of and difference between those two words, and trying to use them correctly, occasionally I still interchange/ swap them when I write.

I hope the intent of what I posted wasn't lost because of that, at least to those who seriously wonder about the subject (i.e. are not only joking).

Thanks.

Safe and Happy Shooting!

Ed, the Airgun TuneMeister

https://www.airguntunemeister.com/


Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 265
2019-07-26 09:13:29  

Ed, I applaud your reading comprehension,  here's so the rest don't need to read between the lines... "effected" as in past tense.

 

The time period in which I came to the job force involved massive job cuts by The Big 3, and a very tight job market.

My Father's generation was taking all the middle ground, a market tight enough that he came to FL for roofing work in the winter.

 

Who would you hire? A young buck, or a guy with 20+ years experience engineering at Ford who was just early retired?

Who promised Mr. Ford Engineer a lifetime retirement anyway?

Where were the new engineering jobs? 

 

Which trends internal to those corporations, and which macro market trends screwed the pooch for the the future job market?

Who made those decisions?

Could it be time for THAT generation to sit down and enjoy retirement? ( aka the mess they've made)

S

 

edited for spelling, grammar, format, etc, but I didn't take anything back

There you have it, the world according to John.


Gratewhitehuntr
(@gratewhitehuntr)
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 265
2019-07-26 09:43:54  

Part 2

If not, perhaps they could just take my word?

If I'd been able to get a job in tool/die or any other machining, we'd have had some of this stuff long ago.

Silenced big bore semi-auto has been top of my list since I got into airguns, and I've been working on it since the beginning of my machine shop progression. (not that I'd mentioned it)

Others had a head start, that's awesome. Buying is less work than inventing! (so is reverse engineering, as if we aren't ALL applying known concepts)

 

Regulation is coming, legal firearm owners have been dealing with it since forever. Get over it.

Outsourcing is coming, and we can't tell the Chinese a damn thing.  Look how easy a 200mW green laser is to get! (blind you in a wink)

Violence is endemic to the animal condition, it will continue, in all forms, at all levels.

 

We ARE NOT HAVING A PRIVATE CONVERSATION ON THE INTERNET, IT CAN'T HAPPEN.

Just because some item exists, doesn't mean we need to provide alarmists with search terms or ammunition.

Just because something is dangerous, that doean't mean we need to give people ideas, people are dangerous enough as it is.

 

Now if you need me, I'll be one of this country's brightest sons, degraded into competing against foreign labor in one of the last bastions of American Manufacturing. One of the last manufacturing fields that cannot be outsourced, Residential Construction, and so we import labor...and the trend continues. This housing boom (here at least) has brought a FLOOD of illegals.

Thanks to the people who let it happen...

I SOOOOOOOOO love being underbid by a guy with no overhead OR  legal anything (drivers, insur, certs, lisc, more insur, taxes, more insur, paperwork, more taxes, ad nauseam)

 

Get off the soapbox (not Ed) ... I'm going too... stop stirring the pot...

 

 

edited repeatedly for clarity (as if) spelling, punctuation, etc. I didn't take anything back, you can't take back the truth.

There you have it, the world according to John.


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